Carol Jenkins: Hello and thanks so much for joining the Invisible Americans podcast with Jeff Madrick and Carol Jenkins. We address the travesty of child poverty here.

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Jeff Madrick: There are nearly 13 million children living in serious material deprivation in America and we don't see them. They are our invisible Americans and we plan to change that.

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Carol Jenkins: A couple of words about us. The podcast is based on Jeff's book, Invisible Americans, The Tragic Cost of Child Poverty. He's an economics writer, author of seven and co-author of another four books on the American economy.

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Jeff Madrick: And Carol is an Emmy-winning journalist, activist and author, most recently president of the ERA Coalition, working to amend the Constitution to include women.

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Carol Jenkins: And we are longtime colleagues and friends. Thanks so much for joining us for the first episode of this, the fourth season of our podcast to end child poverty. The topic today, the groundswell in the movement for unconditional cash support for our babies. Our guests today are New York City Council President Adrienne Adams, who has launched a first ever city cash program. And afterwards, we talked with Laura Clancy, executive director of the nonprofit the bridge project that will implement that program. Our co-host today is Dr. C. Nicole Mason, anti-poverty expert, President Emerita of the Women's Policy Institute, and author of Born Bright, a young girl's journey from nothing to something in America.

There are more than 1,400 babies born in New York City shelters every year. Babies with no homes. The New York City Council made big news when it announced it was dedicating a million and a half dollars for unconditional cash income for expectant mothers facing housing crises in the city. Partnering with the Bridge Project, it would guarantee support for three years for 161 recipients. Speaker of the Council Adrienne Adams is the leadership of this first-ever breakthrough. She talked about why city governments should adopt the concept of guaranteed income, how much money it saves, and about the persistent crisis of Black maternal health in New York City and her plans to end it. Thank you so much, Speaker Adams. It's a pleasure to have you. If I were still living in Jamaica, Queens, you'd be my representative. I grew up there.

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Adrienne Adams: Really? Oh, my goodness. There's more trivia from Carol Jenkins, the legend. I had no idea.

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Carol Jenkins: It did. Botch Boulevard and 170th Street. 

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Adrienne Adams: Right down the street? Wow. 

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Carol Jenkins: So, thank you for representing us so well. And, you know, it's incredible. Many people do not know because they think that New York is so progressive and sophisticated that you are the first woman and the first black person to be Speaker of the City Council in New York City. It's incredible.

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Adrienne Adams: Isn't that something, Carol? And we're in 2025 now. I still marvel at the whole thing. I was elected in 2017 to represent District 28 as the first woman council member. And then in 2022 to be the first black speaker for the city council. It's just amazing to me that, you know, these days we are still chalking up, you know, firsts for black folk.

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Carol Jenkins: Exactly. Well, I'm delighted to be talking to the first. Thank you. And you have a first-ever project to talk about that we here at the Invisible Americans are also so excited about, and that is guaranteed income for our babies. The announcement was really shocking when you did it. I don't think anybody expected the New York City Council, you know, to be so zeroed in on the problem with our child poverty issues.

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Adrienne Adams: It's just amazing, you know, when we think about these things, and I just have to step back and just say, you know, we're the first women majority city council ever, so we are actually leading this council with the men that get it. I'll shout them out also. We've got a couple of them that really do get it. And we are also the most diverse city council. We have mothers, first-time mothers. And now, since I've been a speaker, we now have second-time mothers. They're on their second babies now. 

So, we've done a lot of legislating that New York has never seen before. These are things that have been put on the back burner, that have never been prioritized by any of my predecessors. We are now putting our families forward, our children forward, our communities forward, our healthcare forward, things that actually do matter to us because we live this thing. I keep saying we are our own constituents. So, the City Council established an initiative that for the first time uses municipal funding to support a guaranteed income program. And this groundbreaking initiative is specifically for expectant mothers operated by the Bridge Project.

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Carol Jenkins: Especially and particularly for a certain kind of expectant mother, and this is a problem that we have in New York City of those without housing or in danger of losing housing. Talk to us about that. What is the number of babies born in New York City shelters? Is it like 1,400?

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Adrienne Adams: Yeah, I believe so. It's a significant number with that high number, which is absolutely unacceptable to us. Guaranteed income programs, though, can provide greater financial stability for its recipients, and this is particularly critical for expectant mothers and their children at a pivotal time that's already stressful enough. You mentioned housing. Addressing housing and economic security is key to maternal health because we have to realize that the challenges that women face before, during, and after pregnancy all contribute to stressors that impact their health and health incomes and outcomes, actually. 

And housing is one of the biggest challenges that our city is facing. So, helping to create better housing outcomes for mothers and their babies is absolutely key for us to do that. In previous cohorts, even, of this program operated, again, by the Bridge Project, 63% of participants living in transitional housing moved into permanent housing within a nine-month period. I think that's a lot to cheer about.

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Carol Jenkins: Exactly, exactly. Tell us how your program will work. We know from Bridge that it's either a bi-weekly or a monthly payment. It takes place for the first three years, which gives a person, a mother, a baby, enough time to adjust and to become solid in their lives.

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Adrienne Adams: Yeah, that's right. This program guarantees income for pregnant mothers who, again, are experiencing housing difficulties. Some have come out of domestic violence situations. Some have come out of other types of situations where they are really, really on their own. This is guaranteed income that will take them through a period in their lives where they, afterward, they become financially stable. We've heard stories a few weeks ago, you and I were in the same space, and we heard incredible stories. of women that one was in a domestic violence situation, someone else was on their own.

They wept as they told us their stories and said that had it not been for this particular program, they don't know where they would be. So, we're just happy to provide the assistance, the income. We saw some of the children running around, and it's just an amazing feeling to be a part of really the first day of the best day of these women's lives.

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Carol Jenkins: The thing that always makes your heart sing to see those babies, you know, to see those children coloring and smiling. Yeah. And so, you're going to be changing, changing lives. What about the sum? You've put a million and a half dollars, you know, for those who would say this is a lot of money, it's very expensive. But you have said this is a cost saving to the city of New York.

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Adrienne Adams: It absolutely is. When we think about, you know, the million or so that we put in, that's a drop in the bucket, considering how many lives, you know, we've touched and still have the potential to touch. Right now, we're talking about 161 women and, you know, spread across the needs of these women. That's really a drop in the bucket, but we are happy that we do have, you know, the philanthropy factor also working with us with this, and we're going to need an even bigger, you know, push for philanthropy to help these women along because once we see the outcome, we see the potential. 

I mean, these women, they come in, you know, college graduates, high school graduates, just raring to go. And to see where some of them now, you know, with degrees, full degrees, master's degrees, everything that they could only dream of years ago in the situations that they were in meant to help them down are now that those situations are pushed out of the way and they have amazing hope, you know, a future that, you know, it's just marvelous and incredible.

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Carol Jenkins: And I know that you have spoken quite vehemently about the maternal health situation in New York City.

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Adrienne Adams: Yeah. Black women are six times more likely to die due to pregnancy-related issues than our white counterparts. Who would think in 2025 that we're dealing with this situation where those statistics are not going down, but they're actually increasing, Carol. It's an incredible thing to even think about that something that is supposed to be the most natural thing ever, what our bodies were built for, to give life, and women are dying in incredible numbers still to this day. So, I prioritized this issue, something else that lived experiences. 

My mom had several false alarms when she gave birth to me. I was due on January 14th, and I actually came into this world on December 9th, you know, after her, you know, fourth or so false alarm going into Elmhurst General Hospital where they didn't believe that she was in labor again. Well, they told her to sit down on a gurney in the back and, you know, just, you know, catch her breath or whatever. My mother gave birth to me alone in that hospital. So, you know, I still say after all these years of a walking miracle because we both could have been dead on a gurney.

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Carol Jenkins: said you were on a gurney in the hallway and your mother delivered you by herself.

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Adrienne Adams: By herself. By herself. Yeah.

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Carol Jenkins: And we had a recent case of Beverlyn Garcia Barrios. That's right. You used this as an example of, no, we just cannot have this kind of, you know, tragedy.

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Adrienne Adams: No, we cannot. Beverlyn, again, was another story that, you know, was really a heartbreaking situation. We heard that story and it just propelled me to call together a press conference in the Red Room at City Hall to give an emergency speech to elevate the urgency of ending preventable pregnancy-related deaths that have cost far too many lives. This is ridiculous. And the data is clear. startling, 50 and 60 women and birthing people lose their life for pregnancy or trial-related causes in New York City each year. Black New Yorkers, in particular, are six times, as you and I have just said, more likely to die. 

We just can't accept this crisis as being normal. This is not normal. It's not inevitable, and it's preventable. We have to start acting with far more urgency through coordinated action to end maternal mortality and the racial disparities. So, my steering committee, we're in full force. We've pulled together medical experts, advocates, the offices of elected officials. We had our second convening yesterday. Just an amazing group of brilliant minds in one place because we have the answers. 

We just have to get together. to put those solutions together so that they make sense from everything from data to racial disparities to where the healthcare is actually touted and wonderful and where it is actually not that great and why are people dying? What are the reasons in between? So, we're hammering all of this out and I think that we're going to finally come to some solutions together.

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Carol Jenkins: Well, I love the people you had around the table. I looked at every single one of the pictures and every face and every description. You've got midwives. One of the surprising things to me about the death rate was to discover that mental health issues play into effect. You know, one always thinks that it's the medical, biological thing that happens, but apparently, it's the mental health postpartum that taking away a lot of our women, our mothers.

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Adrienne Adams: Astounding. I agree with you. Where we're thinking it's the physical issue of giving birth, either medical conditions that may be present before, you know, during or after. It's that fourth trimester that we've identified, that postpartum period that we've identified, that is particularly critical. We have to start taking a harder look at that time period where, you know, mothers, maybe a first-time mother, second-time mother, third-time mother, postpartum doesn't go away when the baby is born. Postpartum doesn't go away three months after, six months after, six years after even for some women. 

So, we have to take a look at that continuum, how the life experience is happening for that mother. What are her experiences? What is her home life like? What is her mental state of mind like? All of these things play an important part because we've noticed that the suicide rate, The matricide rate, mothers killing their own children, killing themselves, postpartum, all of these things we have to look at really, really closely. And I think that particularly through this steering committee, we're taking a look at everything with a fine-tooth comb.

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Carol Jenkins: Right, and certainly with Bridge, what you will get is the ability to follow them on a regular basis, every two weeks, every month, every, you know, for the three-year period, which is, you know, absolutely essential.

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Adrienne Adams: It really, really is. And that's the great thing about Bridge is that Bridge does not let these mothers go. They don't let them go off on their own and say, right, you've completed, quote, unquote, a program. Now go off and live your life. You know, Bridge is a lifeline, you know, a sustaining lifeline. So this is something that we heard from, you know, from the mothers a few weeks ago, that they need to continue to go on, live their lives, be prosperous and successful.

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Carol Jenkins: So are you hoping that this is followed by other cities, by other local governments? I mean, setting, you know, you and New York City setting the stage for this means a lot. You know, that's a big investment, you know, a very visible investment and a good one.

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Adrienne Adams: Yeah, New York is always the trendsetter. We're always the first to do this great stuff. So, hopefully, we will be the role models for other jurisdictions to follow. We know that we've done this in the past, as far as our funding sources for reproductive healthcare and the right to have an abortion and other things. We're hoping that our focus in this particular area does take off in other jurisdictions and that, once again, New York sets the bar for others to follow. The steering committee will continue meeting, you know, every couple of weeks. We have at least two sets of note takers for breakout sessions. So, we are working to compile information, you know, over the next few months. We will have our information together. We're going to be able to present it. And hopefully, Carol, we're going to be able to save some lives.

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Carol Jenkins: Excellent. I'm sure you will. And thank you from the bottom of our hearts, the work that you're doing for the mothers and grandmothers who are in positions of power now to take notice of our children.

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Adrienne Adams: Thank you.

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Carol Jenkins: What is known as the Appalachian region in the United States covers several states. It's also known for its high childhood poverty, three times the national average, affecting almost 15% of the children in that area. Dr. C. Nicole Mason and I talked with Laura Clancy, Executive Director of the BRIDGE Project, the guaranteed income project that began in Manhattan, and as you've heard in our conversation with Speaker Adams, is working with the City of New York and has now expanded as far as Appalachia in the states of Ohio, Kentucky, and West Virginia. So, Laura, thank you so much for being with us today. We've been friends of the Bridge Project for a long time now. 

We're huge fans of everything you all do. And Nicole, thanks so much for joining us as co-hosts, formerly and previously a guest of ours, a fantastic friend of the podcast as well. Laura, if you could bring us up to date on this tremendous expansion of the Bridge Project's work. I know you started in my neighborhood in Manhattan, and now you're almost everywhere. Tell us about your expansion.

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Laura Clancy: So we began in New York City during the early parts of the COVID pandemic to serve some of the most vulnerable people in New York City, which we saw as pregnant women, particularly pregnant women who are undocumented. And we realized very quickly that unconditional cash was a way to move significant resources to moms with actually a very strong evidence base. There's incredible research, both domestically and internationally, about the impact of unconditional cash, both for mom and for baby. 

And it really propelled us to launch a really significant expansion effort. We're now in New York City, as you mentioned, but we've also grown to Buffalo and Rochester, so we have a nice footprint within the state of New York. We're in Milwaukee, Wisconsin now. We recently opened up statewide in Connecticut. And just two weeks ago, we opened our first site in the Appalachian regions of Ohio, West Virginia, and Kentucky. So, we're really trying to look at the impact of this intervention in a variety of different settings. 

So, Appalachia, why Appalachia? Well, Appalachia is home to a lot of moms and babies living in poverty. It's an area that philanthropists have not historically invested in and paid attention to. We really wanted to see if this intervention had the same positive impact as in very rural areas without a lot of other resources as it seemed to in more urban areas where moms just have more resources to access. 

And so far, the response has been tremendous. We had, for example, webinars with local health clinics and providers, community-based organizations, we literally had to upgrade our Zoom subscription to accommodate the 370 people who ended up joining these webinars, and we've gotten over 850 applications in just two weeks, which I think really speaks to the power and the appeal of unconditional cash as an intervention for low-income pregnant women.

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Nicole Mason: So I'm really excited about the program, especially the expansion in Appalachia and the emerging program in New York. I do a lot of anti-poverty work, and nationally about 11 million children live in poverty, but only 1.5 million of those children receive any kind of cash benefits. How do programs like the Bridge Project or Guaranteed Income Programs help to close that gap and move families and children out of poverty?

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Laura Clancy: One quick stat just to reframe the 11 million statistics, that's more than the entire population of Greece and is completely unacceptable. We do a one-on-one call with them and a social worker where we do a couple of things. The first is we say, okay, before you join this program, let's look at your current benefits so that you understand what benefits you're getting right now and any impact that this program would have on other benefits. Usually, we see very minimal, but some impact on benefits that we want to make sure participants are aware of before they accept the program. We can also then say, wait, you're not on Medicaid? Wait, you're not on WIC? and we make sure that they are fully apprised of the other resources that they could be utilizing. 

Now, some of those are more state and national level. Some of them are far more local. So, for example, here in New York City, I didn't mention this earlier, but we recently launched a partnership with the New York City Council to specifically support 161 women living in housing insecurity in New York City. And here in New York City, we have this amazing doula partnership where if you identify as being homeless, you get access to a doula. And so we're able to say to moms, wait, you're not on WIC? Let's get you on WIC. You're not on Medicaid? You should think about signing up for Medicaid. You don't have a doula and you actually have a doula alliance that you're eligible for? Let's get you hooked up with that. 

And so because trust is built very, very quickly with our team, I mean, generally speaking, We are bringing resources to mom with an unprecedented level of trust that they've never experienced before, sadly. They have higher uptake of the resources that we offer them because they know that we are 100% on their side, in their corner, and that anything we say to them is, it's totally up to them what they do with it. It's been really gratifying to see both how many moms are signing up for those benefits if they don't get it yet. 

We create a line of communication with those moms so that they can tell us when something isn't going right. So, for example, right now we have a lot of moms who are experiencing challenges with their housing vouchers. I'm sure you've seen this statistic, Dr. Mason, before. But Matthew Desmond at Princeton talks about how in the U.S. only one in six people who should be eligible for housing subsidy actually gets a voucher or assistance of some kind. And so we hear from our moms who have said, listen, I've been waiting for two years for my Section 8 voucher, or I just got kicked out of the process. And we try and help them navigate so they can be more successfully connected to the resources that they are entitled to.

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Nicole Mason: So in addition to the CAST support, it seems like the families receive other kinds of supports in terms of learning how to access benefits, advocate for themselves, but also you all providing information so that they can advocate effectively.

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Laura Clancy: That's right. And it's not full case management. We can't take credit for that. We often do refer people to other organizations who can provide full case management if they don't have that in their lives. But often, it's just a conversation, right? So, if you're in Connecticut, and Connecticut just launched this incredible initiative where everybody who has a baby on the HESKY Medicaid plan gets a baby bond, we can say, wait, did you know that if you're on Medicaid, you get this baby bond too? Let's get you signed up for Medicaid and so you get this, you know, $3,000 plus for your baby for the baby bond. Honestly, it's often just like a nudge or making a connection for a mom. That's really useful.

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Carol Jenkins: Laura, talk to us about the baby bonds.

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Laura Clancy: This is an exciting new territory. Connecticut became the first state to offer a statewide baby bond. Essentially, if you're born onto the Medicaid plan, the Husky Medicaid plan, you automatically get a bond that can be used as an adult for, it's not unconditional by any means, but for wealth building purposes. So for example, you can use it towards buying a residence in the state of Connecticut, starting a business, pursuing higher education. There are stipulations. A lot of it has to do with staying connected to Connecticut, but the concept is using the power of compounding to enable residents who don't have access to other forms of wealth building more access. 

And what we found is that it's really, really powerful for our moms when it's combined with a short-term guaranteed income program like the Bridge Project. Because imagine being a mom and being told, hey, listen, not only are you going to get up to $1,000 a month for the first three years of your baby's life, but also if you're on Medicaid, the state is putting this money aside for your baby to use when they're older. 

It totally transforms, I think, the experience of being late in your pregnancy, which is typically a time of such stress, such strain. to a time where you feel supported and a time when you feel stronger from those programs. So, it's been phenomenal to be able to communicate with state officials in Connecticut and moms in Connecticut about that new offering, and we're excited that more states are considering baby bonds.

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Carol Jenkins: So, it's money that's put in by the state, and now in this system, can parents also add to it during the years?

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Laura Clancy: I'm not sure, but I don't think that's the case in Connecticut. I could be wrong about that.

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Carol Jenkins: that some of them work so that they can actually contribute to it, and the kids are eligible at 18.

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Laura Clancy: That's right, but I do want to emphasize it's not unconditional, so it's certain wealth building activities that the funds can be utilized for.

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Carol Jenkins: I understand that you were just at the Federal Reserve talking about this. I'm always impressed when institutions like that are talking about babies and educating them. Tell us about that. How was that received?

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Laura Clancy: Well, you know, whenever you have a conference that requires people to go outside in January on a frigid New York day, you're probably going to get the people who are true believers anyway. So important caveat. But I think some of the most exciting content at that conference was new research out of Stanford that basically suggested that by providing something like a baby bond, that families were better able to prioritize saving for long-term wealth-building activities for their child. But also, we're more likely to engage in what they call human capital building activities. 

So, for example, coaching your kid’s soccer team, being an involved parent, the research suggested that especially when you combine guaranteed income programs, like the bridge project. with longer term instruments like a baby bond, that parents were able on multiple levels to invest more in their children, not just for their subsistence needs, but also for just general youth development activities and longer-term wealth building activities.

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Carol Jenkins: And I want to go back to the city council cooperation. That was a significant triumph for you all to squeeze money out of, if I put it that way, out of the city of New York, you know, to give to expecting mothers.

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Laura Clancy: Let me reframe that very kind compliment. It was the first unconditional cash program that the New York City Council has ever supported. And we have been really grateful to them for their support. The city of New York currently spends, this is what they tell us, $6,000 a month to house a mom and her baby. Do you think that the average pregnant woman gets $6,000 a month worth of value from that offering? I can tell you from the moms that we've talked to, absolutely not. 

And so one of the things we're really excited about is actually researching for this intervention. Are we actually going to save the city money? Because we're getting moms into permanent housing more quickly. And in a time when the average shelter stay is something like 450 days in New York City, our ability to accelerate moms into permanent housing both has a very positive health impact for them and their babies, but also has significant upside from a cost perspective for the city. So they've been tremendous partners. It's been great to work with them. I'd also say they have a lot of money that they could be saving.

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Carol Jenkins: Well, that is tremendous. And just this very morning, I was with Holly Fogel, the founder of the Bridge Project, taking a look at the new hub, the Childhood Hub. Talk to us about that. It is so exciting. Again, in my neighborhood, thank you so much, where a lot of undocumented families are being taken care of, and their babies, and giving all of this advice you give them to get on their feet. Tell us about the hub.

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Laura Clancy: This is not my area of expertise necessarily, but essentially the hub is designed to be a place where multiple hospitals and healthcare providers can collaborate to create a more holistic, trust-based experience for moms in the neighborhood, which is Washington Heights and northern Manhattan more broadly. So, our hope is that it'll be. Although the Bridge Project isn't formally affiliated with it, we are huge fans. We have a lot of moms in northern Manhattan. 

And what we want it to be is a place where moms feel very confident and very comfortable going in and seeking care. They can get the majority of their needs taken care of in a setting that feels really appropriate to them. And in a time when they're feeling especially vulnerable, particularly, as you put it, our undocumented moms, we need to make sure that this is a time when we're rebuilding trust in the healthcare system for our most vulnerable citizens. Nicole, you're an expert in this field.

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Carol Jenkins: Share your thoughts on this kind of guaranteed income. What I love about it is that there's very little paperwork. And I think that, Nicole, you and I were talking about your experiences as a kid. You know, in fact, every adult survivor of childhood poverty has talked about watching their mothers have a nervous breakdown, filling out the paperwork. So, talk to us a little bit about, you know, this new guaranteed income system.

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Nicole Mason: I'm really excited about guaranteed income programs in general, and as you all know, the social safety net has shrunk significantly since 1996 when the welfare program was reformed, and so there are less families who are accessing cash benefits, and the average cash benefit is between $550 and $600. So, one of the things I wanted to ask you about, Laura, is that You say, you know, in the state of Wisconsin, you all received about, you know, 800 applications for 22 or so slots. And then, you know, you had over 800 applications in Appalachia. What does that tell you about the need for the program and the economic insecurity that families are facing in this, at this moment?

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Laura Clancy: You raise such a good point. There is almost infinite demand for programs like this. People ask us, do you have a hard time with recruitment? We're like, absolutely not. And, in fact, other interventions that aren't direct cash programs often want us to refer moms to them because we have so many eyeballs on us and we get so much attention, in part because every two weeks we're giving them money, right? 

And so we have the attention of our moms for three years. Every two weeks we're in touch with them to make sure that they're getting their money correctly. I think one of the reasons why it's so important for us to not just directly operate this program but also work with policymakers to set larger policy goals is that there's no way that we can, as a philanthropy that's primarily foundation-funded, meet the entire need. 

So, you may have seen in Governor Hochul's State of the State, I think it was last week, she's proposing something called the Baby Benefit, which would be the first statewide pre- and postnatal cash benefit for low-income moms ever, and we're both incredibly excited about the potential for that to reach tens of thousands of moms in New York State. Also, to us, that's an opening. We think the cash should be larger amounts, longer duration, even more generous. 

And so to that end, last year we proposed something called, or we were architecting something called the Milk Bill. It has since been rebranded to the New York Baby Bucks Allowance, but which would essentially be an enriched version of that pre and postnatal benefit. Once people who work in the nonprofit sector who are used to having really arduous recruitment cycles hear what it's like to be us when we'll get literally 300 applications in the first 20 minutes of an application being opened because people hear about it and they're like, that is exactly what I need. Please sign me up. It really makes you… reconsider the relative value of direct cash versus other forms of service programs, which may or may not be as efficient, as effective, as targeted as direct cash is.

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Carol Jenkins: And then once the paperwork is filled out, you then award the money by lottery. Once you meet the criteria, then you're lucky you get chosen.

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Laura Clancy: That's right. And to be honest, sometimes when we tell moms, I'm so sorry that we weren't chosen in the lottery, they'll come back and say, like, I really could have used this. And we'll say, great, let's figure out how to use that energy for advocacy because you are the most powerful voice that any policy maker could ever hear in terms of what this money would have meant to you if you got into this lottery.

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Carol Jenkins: So, Nicole, I want to ask you and Laura about your thoughts about this year and what it is we need to be doing.

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Nicole Mason: Well, I think we have our work cut out ahead of us, especially when we think about the economic security of women and families and immigrant families. in particular, and so a lot of it is going to be holding the line and trying to maintain the benefits and services that are already on the books, and it's going to come down to states being willing to step up and maintain those programs and advocate for them at the federal level. 

It remains to be seen, for me, whether or not we're going to be able to pass anything proactive or any new legislation or expand the earned income tax credit and some of the other programs that we know are really critical to lifting people out of poverty and families out of poverty. It just remains to be seen in the first and early days of this administration about the kinds of work we'll be able to do in partnership.

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Laura Clancy: Laura? I completely second everything that Dr. Mason just said. I would add a few additional thoughts. The first is I think housing insecurity is going to be at the top of, it should be at the top of every policymaker agenda. HUD just released data from 2024 that showed very steep increases across the board, even over one year, and especially for family homelessness. And we cannot ignore the fact that increasingly more and more low-income people in America are falling into one of HUD's categories for homelessness, which would be attempting to flee a domestic violence situation, living in a shelter or outdoors, living in overcrowded situations, and or dealing with an eviction court order. So, we're going to see more and more pregnant women falling into that category. 

And shelter is absolutely disastrous for mom and for baby. variety of outcomes, moral hazard outcomes, but also health outcomes. Babies who are born into shelter, and there were 2,000 of them born into shelter in New York City last year alone, which is an absolutely unconscionable number. They are far more likely to experience higher rates of respiratory illness in particular. They're less likely to meet developmental milestones by 18 months and suffer from a variety of other deleterious outcomes that will take a lifetime to undo. 

So as we think about this political moment that we're in, think about bipartisan opportunities to show whether this intervention works or doesn't work in a variety of settings, in red and blue states. Because at the end of the day, there are babies and moms who need an intervention like this. And if we're talking about efficiency, you wanna know what's efficient is giving a pregnant mom cash. She knows exactly what she needs to do with it. It is gonna be squeezed like the last penny, and I hope that policymakers and decision-makers can see direct cash as a very efficient way to deliver aid, not as a handout, not as a way for people to avoid work.

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Carol Jenkins: Well, for both of you, thank you for your predictions and suggestions for the next year. We'll be talking to you again, I'm sure. Laura, thanks so much. 

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Laura Clancy: Thank you. 

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Carol Jenkins: Nicole, thanks for joining us. 

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Nicole Mason: Thanks, Carol. 

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Carol Jenkins: Thanks so much for joining us on the Invisible Americans podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts. But we urge you to visit our website for transcripts, show notes, research, and additional information about our guests and their work. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Please follow us on social media and our new YouTube channel. And our blog posts are up on Medium as well as our website. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Jeff and I will see you the next time.

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