Carol Jenkins: 

Hello, and thanks so much for joining us for the official opening of season two of the Invisible Americans podcast. 

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Jeff Madrick:

Today, we will talk with Robert Gordon, advisor to President Biden on economic mobility. How high is child poverty on the Biden-Harris administration's list of priorities? 

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Carol Jenkins:

And then we talk with two leading child poverty activists who marshaled their enormous contingent of followers to press the House of Representatives to pass a child tax credit. And they succeeded. 

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Jeff Madrick: 

But first, Robert Gordon. After clerking for Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, he began a career-long battle against poverty in America, along the way serving as head of Michigan's Health and Human Services and in key positions in the Obama and Biden administrations. He is advisor to the president on economic mobility and to the Domestic Policy Council. 

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Carol Jenkins: 

Robert, thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you for your lifelong work trying to ease poverty in this country in so many positions and places. You really are leaving a tremendous mark. So, thank you so much. 

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Robert Gordon:

Thank you for the kind words. It's great to be with you. 

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Jeff Madrick:

Well, we've been working on the child tax credit really as an organization since 2015, and we never expected to get this far. How about you? Did you expect to get this far with the renewal of a possible child tax credit? 

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Robert Gordon:

I think the progress on the child tax credit is an incredible tribute to activism, to scholars like you, Jeff, working on this, Carol, to your work, to thousands of people who aren't on this call. And then to say also to this president and this Congress for getting something done in 2021. And so, yes, I think the progress has been extraordinary. But as you say, there's still a very long way to go. 

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Jeff Madrick:

What is the general philosophy about the government's role in poverty reduction in the White House these days? 

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Robert Gordon:

I am not a philosopher myself. I will say that we believe a strong economy is essential to reducing poverty. And so, there is enormous pride about the importance of the gains, about historically low levels of unemployment, tight labor market, the gains that that has generated in improving wages and reducing income inequality. And then there's an important role for government and smart government policy, starting with what we were just talking about, a strong child tax credit, support for families to get childcare, early learning, and much more. 

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Carol Jenkins:

So, Robert, we have a feeling that we know how you feel about child poverty, but in terms of the White House, how high up are our children living in poverty on the priority list in the Biden-Harris administration? 

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Robert Gordon:

It is enormously high up. The president, the vice president, believed that no child should grow up in poverty, that it is a betrayal of the country's values, that it also deprives the country of opportunity, of growth, of fulfilling its own potential and everything that it stands for. I think we are very proud of what we have managed to accomplish. I'm happy to talk more about that. But I think permanently extending that child tax credit expansion from the American Rescue Plan is very high on the list of unfinished business for this administration. 

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Carol Jenkins: 

Go into detail for us about what you think are your biggest wins so far. 

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Robert Gordon

Where you began, that just getting even temporarily – and it was heartbreaking that it wasn't extended – but even getting the fully refundable child tax credit was an enormous accomplishment and it helped people see that this was possible that it was politically possible and then what the consequences would be that getting child poverty down to 5% less than half what it had been, getting child hunger down in a way that we haven't seen that these things were actually possible in this country, in the United States. So that was an enormous accomplishment and there's unfinished business there. There's other work we did on poverty that is going to have a lasting benefit that is permanent. 

So, I'll just name a couple examples related to hunger. We updated the thrifty food plan, the basis for the SNAP benefit, which is the cornerstone of this country's national support in fighting hunger, and said it's got to be adequate for our families to eat today, and that meant an expansion and SNAP benefits of I think about $35 per month per person.  And that is permanent. And that was done through executive, through administrative action. Really big deal. I've been around government for a long time. It's something people have talked about doing for a long time. This administration got it done. 

Second example, bipartisan achievement is summer food support for families. For a long time, people have said lots of low-income families, they rely on school breakfast, school lunch, not just so that kids can be able to succeed in school, but so that their family can have enough to eat. And when summer comes around and schools close, that creates a hunger challenge for families. And so, we have, for the first time now, permanently in law, a summer EBT program that's going to deliver benefits to families even when schools are closed. 

And to go back to the FEMA and activism, it's a state option. I think 35 states have taken it up. A handful of red states have taken it up. And just this week, I just read a clip. The state of Nebraska initially turned it down. There was an outcry in Nebraska. People saying, what are we doing? Not giving families this way to reduce hunger. And the governor changed their mind. And good for them. 

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Carol Jenkins:

So that's one state, Robert. There are some others who just deliberately say, what is your response to the actual refusal to accept money that will feed hungry children? 

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Robert Gordon:

I think it's hard to understand, because this is, as you say, money that will feed hungry children, that will support families, that will extend the benefit that families depend on during the school year. And the burden on states is quite minimal. And it is money for kids, so it is hard to understand. 

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Jeff Madrick:

It always seems to be an uphill battle in America. Since the very beginning, there's been an anti-poverty policy influence, I think. And those people often think they're in the right. How frustrating has it been for you? I try to imagine myself, and I did do a little bit when I was in school, try to imagine myself trying to beg a president to be more aggressive about poverty policy. How have you taken it personally? 

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Robert Gordon:

With this president and his pushing on an open door because of where he is. And I think for me, as someone who's been in policy, I mean, I have the perspective you started with that we have come a long way. I think 20, 30 years ago, the conversation about supporting low-income families was very different and refundable credit was not really a part of the conversation, and today it is. 

And not only is it part of the conversation, you have the House now, having recently passed a bill that extends, at least temporarily, a big chunk of the child tax credit expansion. And that's a mark of real progress. So, there's a long way to go, but I think the conversation is changing. I think part of the reason is, and because of people like the two of you, we just have a growing body of evidence of the difference that this makes for families and for kids. I mean, it shouldn't be controversial or confusing that families having enough money can help students do better in school and grow up healthier and have higher incomes when they're older. But we have over time built that body of evidence, and it's harder and harder to argue with. 

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Jeff Madrick: 

I think it's pretty impressive, the evidence. So, I get angry when people just don't believe it. And we have even New Yorkers who don't believe. The child tax credit is necessary, or that parents will spend it constructively on their kids, both in terms of schoolwork and sheer food. In any case, I'm just going to come back to say I'm impressed it got this far, and I hope we can keep going. 

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Jeff Madrick:

Same here. 

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Carol Jenkins:

I'm struck by your early work in the foster care system. And I know that the White House recognizes that this, for us as well here at the Invisible Americans, are just furious about the foster care treatment and the poverty rates and the trafficking rates that are so high of children who find themselves in the foster care system. If you could address that for us a bit. 

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Robert Gordon:

I think we have, as a society, still a long way to go in making sure that kids, when they do have to come into foster care, first of all, that they come in only when it is truly necessary, and that we are not breaking up families even temporarily, unless there is a very strong need rooted in the child's well-being. And there's a lot of history of family separations that are needed, and that history has a racial dimension, has a tribal dimension, and we have to acknowledge all that history and do what we can to go in a different direction. 

And I think this administration has done some really important things. We have worked hard to support kinship placements so that if a kid can't be with a parent for some amount of time, that they are better off being placed with someone they know who already is committed to them. And so, we are doing a lot to support those kinds of placements. We're also doing a lot to support housing for kids when they leave foster care. Obviously, it's a particularly vulnerable time. That's a group of young people in our society where, on average, the outcomes are not great. And there's a lot more we can do. 

And really, we owe to those young people. And so, things like making sure they have access to housing, there's a very high homelessness strain among kids living in foster care. And we can do something about that. And so, this administration has prioritized housing support, the availability of vouchers for all those kids. But it's something we work hard on. I was just talking to the colleagues at HHS about this last night. It's something you're right, I personally put a lot of time into it my own career. And I think this administration is committed to doing all we can for it. 

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Carol Jenkins:

In reading, there have been a couple of economists who have taken up the cause of child poverty. Paul Krugman, who was on one of our panels at Roosevelt House, and Nick Kristof, I guess writer as opposed to economist, but both of whom with huge audiences are now recognizing that child poverty is a problem. And suddenly it's becoming, you know, on the lips of even newscasters where they're doing interviews on child poverty, which is extraordinary. 

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Robert Gordon:

Yeah, I think that there is a growing recognition. You've played a big part in that. I think it's something that people, at least you would like to think that people across the political spectrum, can agree on the need to address, kids are not at fault for where they are born. And yet, if they grow up, or they have so many fewer opportunities, and there are so many things we can do as a society to support them, like the childcare tax credit, like the Child Tax Credit, like adequately supporting childcare for their families, like supporting decent wages. I should just mention, it's been a priority of this administration. 

But, you know, we are proud to be, I think, without much question, the most strongly pro-Union Administration, you know, in a long time, if not in history, and I think that is an important part of raising wages up and down the income spectrum. And that's an important part also, of supporting children to get out of poverty.  

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Jeff Madrick:

I guess I'm on the side, I'm not really on the side because I root for the Biden program so much, but I guess I worry that what you're now stating is not stated clearly by democratic policymakers. So, I don't know if you feel the same thing on your side of the fence, the achievements that is. 

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Robert Gordon:

I think we talk about it as much as we can. Certainly, the part of the White House that I work in talks about it a lot. I think if you talk to leaders in the administration about things that they are proud of, these games in reducing child poverty are enormously central. But you're right. I think we all could talk about it more. It's part of the stakes facing this country going forward. 

We really do have this opportunity, if we finish the unfinished business of the last few years, to permanently predictably reduced child poverty in this country with enormous gains for children and for families. What an incredible opportunity we have. I certainly talk about it as much as I can, and I know that the president of this administration does as well. 

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Carol Jenkins:

Well, Jeff and I just talked with a couple of really strong activists who worked really hard to get the word out for the House vote. And the question that they had was, will child poverty be in President Biden's State of the Union address? We understand the invitation has been extended and he's accepted. It's March 7th, the State of the Union. And how high in the president's speech, can we expect to see child poverty? 

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Robert Gordon: 

I think I would get in trouble if I started talking about that. So, we will all have to tune in and learn. But it is a really important issue. I think that's all I could say. Making sure everyone has the opportunity and everyone can, all kids can grow up with the incomes that they need. Huge priority for the president, huge level of accomplishment and something that I know you will see prioritized going forward. 

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Carol Jenkins:

Very nicely handled, Robert. And in terms of the vision, what can we expect on the horizon in terms of reducing child poverty? 

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Robert Gordon:

Unfortunately, we are at a moment in Congress where even small things that should be taken for granted are not. I think we are hopeful about the enactment of the legislation that came out of the House with a strong vote and would extend an increased child tax credit to, I think, more than 15 million kids and would reduce the number of kids in poverty by, I think, about a half million. So that is something that we are hopeful about in the coming months. 

Obviously, still, unfortunately, ways to go. And then beyond that, I think you will continue to see an emphasis on the kind of big building blocks that the President has been talking about for a long time, the Child Tax Credit, childcare, adequate support for housing. We haven't talked about housing much, but obviously housing and housing costs are on people's minds. We have done a lot in this administration to expand access to housing. 

A program that doesn't get the attention that I think it deserves is the eviction prevention work that happened during the pandemic. I think 8 million households got support that addressed an eviction risk, and there was tons of innovation around the country. And even though that money is no longer there, the money from the federal government has run out or is running out, many of those programs will continue to operate because they are meeting an important need. So, I think there's been lots of great work and there will continue to be a focus on these challenges going forward. 

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Carol Jenkins: 

In your office of economic mobility, of course, at the bottom of all of these troubles are the fact that people are not earning enough to meet expenses of food, shelter, childcare, clothing, Wi-Fi, all of these things. So, what is at the essence of kicking in that mobility so people will actually be able to afford as opposed to just being supported by philanthropists, the government, whether it's federal or state, with cash payouts. When and how do we get to the point of just being able to earn enough money on your own to eliminate poverty? 

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Robert Gordon:

Yeah, I think if there are two words that this administration uses more than any others, they're probably good jobs. We talk constantly about good jobs and the centrality of good jobs. And I think you have from this president an enormous focus on creating jobs and in particular creating jobs that are available to everyone, jobs that are available, people who have not achieved, who do not have college degree, people who are ready to work, willing to work, willing to get skills that are meaningful. 

And so, you have this massive Invest in America agenda, the achievements of the bipartisan infrastructure law, the CHIPS legislation, the Inflation Reduction Act, and massive investments in green jobs. And those bills together are making for hundreds of billions of dollars and new investment in the United States. That is creating jobs that often our union jobs, and our jobs that require skills that people can get on our jobs that will be reliably available, and create pathways to the middle class for, you know, for decades to come. 

So I think that's work that again, just thinking in my own history, as someone who's been around politics and policy for a long time, isn't necessarily something you would have anticipated 10 or 20 years ago, but it has happened under this President and that create, I think creates the foundation for the creation of millions of jobs that are available to families who might not otherwise be in poverty, but instead will be in the middle class. And so that's a huge win for them and for the country.

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Jeff Madrick:

Very interesting. I'm sure you guys are thinking that way. If you don't mind, we'll keep in touch with you to see what the next obstacle or objective is. I was born in a middle-class person. I have never been able to get over the renunciation of poverty policy by the American public. And it didn't start just 20 years ago. We know it was a long time before that, but it certainly got clobbered by some Republican writing and some Reagan administration writing on poverty policy. For example, cash was always the problem. So good luck to you. We're delighted to hear all this. 

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Robert Gordon:

Thank you so much. 

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Carol Jenkins: 

Thank you so much, Robert, for being with us and sharing the vision of the Biden-Harris White House in terms of child poverty and poverty expansively and hopefully shrinking. And we'll be watching the State of the Union on March 7th, Robert, to see how high in this president's speech it's mentioned. And we'll be on the cheering squad over here. 

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Robert Gordon:

Thank you both for all that you have done and continue to do. And thank you for having us. 

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Carol Jenkins:

Thanks so much.

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[The Invisible Americans theme by Bridget St. John]

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Carol Jenkins:

In February, the House of Representatives, in a bipartisan vote, passed a new tax reform bill that includes a new child tax credit. Kristen Roe Finkbeiner is the founder and CEO of Moms Rising, with a million active moms who went to work for the CTC. 

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Jeff Madrick: 

Meredith Dodson is the Senior Director of Public Policy of the Coalition on Human Needs. She works on issues of low income and poverty. Her organization represents over 100 of the country's leading civil rights, religious, and progressive organizations. 

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Carol Jenkins: 

Kristen and Meredith, I want you to know that as I watched the work that you did leading up to the vote on the child tax credit, I was just amazed. Thank you both so much for employing your enormous networks, you know, the petitions, the emails, the social media, all of that I think resulted in, you know, the success we had in the House. 

If you could each tell us where you think we are now, knowing that we have some people like the Honorable Laura DeLauro, who is still angry about it, both that many felt that this was the best that could be done so far. Kristen, do you want to start with your response of where you think we are? 

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Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner: 

Right now, we're in a really interesting position where the Child Tax Credit, affectionately known as the CTC, has passed the US House with bipartisan support in a big, big way. We were thrilled when that happened, because it would lift 400,000 kids out of poverty and cover 16 million kids. It would lift our families. It would lift the economy. 

Now, that same policy is in the US Senate, where it is honestly teetering on the edge of passing or not passing. One of the things we're really worried about is some senators, some far right extremist senators to be more specific, adding in some toxic amendments that would cause us all to have to say, wait, no, no, thank you. We're not going that direction. One of the toxic amendments that we're on the lookout for is a provision that sounds great, making sure the CTC can cover pregnant people, but actually would give fetal personhood status and eventually likely lead to a national abortion ban. 

So, we're on the lookout for a solid child tax credit package to pass through the US Senate without any damaging amendments. And we're going to keep the pressure on all the way to the finish line with moms, dads, parents, people calling on US senators to pass it. 

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Carol Jenkins: 

Meredith? 

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Meredith Dodson: 

Yeah, well, I definitely want to echo what Kristen just said, which is that this is a really important time to be pushing, raising our voices with members of the US Senate to get this package across the finish line. And I want to acknowledge what the concerns that Representative DeLauro and others have raised, you know, We, you know, at the Coalition on Human Needs, all of our member organizations are painfully aware that the improvements on the table to the CTC don't go as far as we would like. 

You know, we have this evidence that we can dramatically reduce child poverty. We saw it happen in 2021 when the expanded and monthly child tax credit payments were going out to families in You know, we share that disappointment that this package doesn't go further. And at the same time, we think this is a really important first step that we can build on for permanent policy change. 

So, the U.S. Senate is on a recess, which means all the folks across the country who have their direct experiences to share about why the child tax credit matters for them. who see the impact that this can make in their community can be telling that directly to their U.S. senators right now, and it's a really important time to do that. 

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Jeff Madrick:

Is there room to expand the amount of benefits in the next go-around? 

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Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner: 

Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that we saw in the US House is Representative DelBene did propose an amendment which failed, but which did expand the amount of kids covered. And also, the timing of the payments was updated. So, there's some great provisions that have been proposed and rejected for this year, 2023, 2024, but we're not giving up. 

As we just heard Meredith say, there are many champions in the House, Representative Rosa DeLauro among them, Representative Susan DelBene, another one, who are pushing for that full coverage that we all need, that we had during the pandemic. So just to take a step back, during the pandemic, We had a monthly CTC, child tax credit payment, that went to families in need and it lifted 40% of kids out of poverty. We know this policy works. It was a temporary policy. 

It was the largest single year drop in child poverty in the history of our nation. It also boosted our economy. It's not surprising that during the time that the CTC was in effect in its more expanded state, we actually saw some of the highest labor force participation rates accelerating for women and moms. That's because people use the CTC to boost our economy to do things like be able to pay for childcare when they go to work, to pay for a roof over their head, to put food on the table, to make work, work. And so that's really important. 

So, is there a chance to pass a stronger, bigger, better CTC using what we know from the past? Yes. I anticipate that likely won't happen until after the next November election. Everybody needs to not only call their member of Congress, their senator specifically, and to say pass a clean CTC with no amendments, but also make sure they're registered to vote. 

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Jeff Madrick:

You guys are doing such admirable work. It seems like there's a lot of heavy lifting that you undertook. What were the most successful programs for you, going directly to moms? 

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Meredith Dodson:

I think it's a variety of things. This child tax credit impacts millions. This proposal, as Kristen mentioned, would impact 16 million children and their families. And all the folks who in 2021, in 2022, talked about why the Child Tax Credit was important to them. And then again, you know, as this package was coming together and moving through the House, all the folks who raised their voices at that point and told their stories in particular, that did make a big difference. 

I know we alone at the Coalition on Human Needs, in the last month, we've generated over 35,000 emails to members of Congress You know, we've helped coordinate dozens of meetings and emails from different organizations to policymakers. But I think the fact that members of the House and members of the Senate have been hearing about this, hopefully on the regular when they're back home, that has also made a big difference, not just in the last stretch, but really over the last couple of years. 

One other piece, and I know MomsRising has a push on this now, along with other folks that we work with closely, is, you know, sharing our stories in both the print media and talking about this on social media. You know, there's a lot of other ways that we could not only use that to kind of amplify what we want to say directly to policymakers, but also make sure other people, our friends, our families, fellow members of our local communities know what's at stake and that there's some really important decisions that they're making. So those were some of the things that I know happened. Kristen might want to chime in more based on what Mom's Rising was doing. 

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Carol Jenkins: 

You're mentioning the 35,000 emails. I think when we see Meredith's emails coming through – and Kristin’s – with the numbers of people that you are able to contact, that is the key thing. So why don't we, for our listeners, have you Give us an idea. I know the coalition, you know, has got some heavy-duty civil rights, you know, labor unions, et cetera, in that coalition. Tell us a little bit about that strength. And then I want to hear about the million moms after you too, you know, your coalition, Meredith. 

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Meredith Dodson: 

In my role at the Coalition on Human Needs, I get to work with one hundred more than one-hundred-member organizations. That includes folks who work in local communities, kind of grassroots organizations who engage, you know, support folks to be advocating in local communities. But it also includes service providers, faith-based organizations, think tanks, and labor unions. 

And it's been really interesting to see kind of the cross-section of different types of organizations, both within our membership but then actually even beyond that, there's been a number of interesting organizations that are traditionally kind of regarded as a little more conservative that have also been making the case for these provisions that expand the child tax credit in this package. So, yeah, there's been a pretty interesting array of stakeholders, including a lot of really powerful, effective and inspiring work happening by different advocates that I get to meet out with every day. 

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Carol Jenkins:

And Kristin, you know, I've been a fan of yours for since the inception of MomsRising and to just watch that grow and your effect there. Tell us about it. It's what, only a million moms, right? 

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Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner:

Yeah, it's a million active moms. Our actual list of people is much larger because people come in and out of being active. So, we have members in every state in the nation. And one of the things that I just want to lift is Meredith is totally right when she says it's all the things that work. It's not one thing. And one of the reasons for that is parents and moms and people are busy. So, offering people lots of different ways to take action, to make their voices heard, to open avenues, to leaders at the very top is how we all win together. 

So, at MomsRising, some of the avenues that we've opened for people to be heard include that over 100 of our members have submitted local letters to the editors or op-eds. That sounds like a small number, but that's a big impact because when people take time to write for their local news outlets, that is seen, heard and felt by local leaders as much more than one person writing, because people know people are busy. We've had over 9000 phone calls into members of Congress's office where people said, hey, hi, please vote forward a strong child tax credit. We need to keep those calls going. 

So, people who are listening, now is the time to call your US senator and they won't answer the phone. Don't worry. It's not stressful. You'll get a staff person and just tell the staff person, please tell your senator to vote yes on a strong child tax credit with no amendments. And we've had over 20,000 people sign on to a letter of Congress calling to extend the CTC. And last week, we had so much fun. We delivered a storybook, a book of stories from around the entire country to every single member of the House and Senate. 

And then we had a spectacularly fun time handing out little Heart candies with words written on them about our advocacy outside the doors of the US Senate as the senators came in, we got to meet senator Gillibrand's new puppy that happened and we also got to push our senators to remember that Passing a strong CTC without amendments Opens our hearts lifts our economy and makes everything better. So go ahead and let's do that right now yesterday. So lots of fun. 

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Carol Jenkins:

Wow. I always love that Kristin has so much fun doing all of this as well. 

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Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner:

Well, I forgot to tell you, also in 18 states, we had local deliveries of the candy and the stories and everything in the district with local members. So that's happening too. So yes, much fun, much advocacy and much impact all together. 

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Jeff Madrick:

I think that's amazing. That's my two cents. 

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Carol Jenkins: 

In closing, you are just fantastic, and we definitely want to have your back. So, what do you see next? What's your vision? What will you leave our listeners with at this particular moment in February of 2024 when it comes to our children in poverty? Meredith? 

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Meredith Dodson:

I do think that it's both the short term and then the long game. So, the short term is, we do have a chance to really make a difference in reducing child poverty and helping families this tax season make ends meet, catch up on back rent, afford food and put food on the table. And we should seize that. And that's why those calls to the senators right now is critical. 

And again, it's delivering that fast message around passing an expanded child tax credit. No amendments, no cuts, no changes. So, then that's the short-term opportunity. Hopefully that's happening in the next couple of weeks if there's enough momentum for this bipartisan tax package to get across the finish line. And then we look ahead. We know that 2025 is an opportunity because Congress is going to do big tax policy changes next year. 

That's where we can play the lawn game, get permanent, expanded child friendly tax policies across the finish line that kind of build on the work that we have been doing, build on the work that folks are doing in the next couple of weeks, but kind of fundamentally can change the landscape around child poverty in the United States. So that's the long game. But the work right now is really critical and building momentum for that. 

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Carol Jenkins:

Kristin, your view, what's next? 

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Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner:

Well, we need to build a care infrastructure in the United States of America to catch up with the entire rest of the planet Earth and with the modern realities of families. That includes everything Meredith just said. I won't repeat. I will uplift and plus 1000. It also includes making sure that we have paid family medical leave for every single person, no matter where we work or live. It includes making sure we have access to affordable, high quality childcare and elder care. 

And importantly, that care workers, who are some of the lowest paid workers in the United States of America, earn living wages so they can stay in the professions that they're in now. It also includes, of course, the child tax credit, tax reform, maternal justice, so that we can have access to equitable health care. 

And we, as MomsRising, as a movement together with Meredith and hundreds of other organizations, are going to keep pushing, pushing, pushing until we get these changes that roomfuls of data and research show not just help our families, but also help our businesses and our economy too. So, we like to say care can't wait. Our nation can't wait. And so we are counting on making transformational change in the next several years. That means everybody needs to stay involved, calling your U.S. senators and your U.S. House members. 

That means everybody needs to know they have a movement behind them, that polling shows at home, in the districts, all of these policies have more than 76% support of even Republican voters. So, when you have a member of Congress who is not supporting these policies, they're out of step with their own constituents. So don't give up, the American public knows what's right. We see Democratic Members of Congress leading the way forward. 

And we know that it's just a matter of time until every single member of Congress catches up with their own constituents with modern realities and passes these policies. It's just going to take persistence from everybody who's listening and calling, reaching out, making meetings, sending hearts, being there, saying, hello, we're still here. We need change. And then change happens. 

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Jeff Madrick: 

We started as an organization to work on this, in particular, the child tax credit in 2015. So, I can't tell you how heartening it is that so much progress has already been made. Thank you. 

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Carol Jenkins: 

Thank you both so much for being with us and for the work you do every single day. We see you and we appreciate what you're doing so much. Keep those emails coming. 

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Meredith Dodson: 

Thank you for everything. And thank you to all your listeners for making your voices heard. Keep it up. 

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Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your leadership and for having us on. Thank you. 

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[The Invisible Americans theme by Bridget St. John]

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Carol Jenkins:

Thanks so much for joining us on the Invisible Americans podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts, but we urge you to visit our website for transcripts, show notes, research, and additional information about our guests and their work. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Please follow us on social media and our new YouTube channel, and our blog posts are up on Medium as well as our website. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Jeff and I will see you the next time.

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[The Invisible Americans theme by Bridget St. John]

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